Fantasy Wargames Forums

strangly there are obviosly people who agree with you
just check out armies of arcana
most of what you have just said is included in their rules
and if its not there they have a system designd for you to make
your own units similar to arcane legions
maybe we should try that

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Brettonians P-20-W-18-D-0-L-2
Empire P-16-W-9-D-3-L-4
Space Marines P-12-W-7-D-1-L-4
Menoth P-3-W-1-D-0-L-2
Romans P-7-W-3-D-0-L-4 (AL)

As bizarre as it sounds, I think Conboy is right in that Fantasy just isn't fantasy enough. The three human armies and dwarves are far too mundane to compete with the more fantastical races and their myriad of special rules and monstrous nasties. Elves are too quick and have ASF, Daemons are a broken mess, Lizards are too tough for them and their magic is nuts.

The enforcement of the 'hamburger hill style' is true and it sucks. Why can't Dwarves; the masters of all technology, produce some sort of steam armored infantry that overcomes their slowness or lack of cavalry? Why is the Empires only response to enemy elites to shoot them dead? In a game where ranked shooting is piss poor and artillery is as reliable as the weather? Seriously. The poor Bretts seem unable to anything beyond the flying cupboards and Warriors of Chaos are always going to be left for dead because of their complete inflexibility.

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My Storm Lord Chaos army thread
Ork army thread
Confrontation Griffins
My Space Wolves

didnt you argue with me before that the move away from more fantastical and expressive look was a good thing?
also im not completely sure always strikes first is a problem with the armies mood.
it would definitely be nice to have something a bit crazier perhaps the return of the fimir, zoats or sum such. i like the idea of dwarf having a slow tough cavalry, riding on bears or bull or capibari. the quality of some of the recent figure has been terrific and make some of the un updated figures look mundane.
as it is i dont think there much wrong with the mood and theme of warhammer as a whole, it might seem stale but it is the standard for most other games

the big problem at the moment is that the newer army book have suffered from some extreme balance problem which have highlighted flaws in the current system.

well that and gamesworkshops money grinding marketing

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THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't. I said that in comparison to the poor old infantry, monsters and characters were ridiculous but that's because of how the stupid combat phase is resolved. How can you justify that when a Giant goes to make a 'pick up and...' attack that the unit (2 ranks too I'm sure) get to attack him but the infinitely scarier Star Dragon can wreck the unit unmolested?

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My Storm Lord Chaos army thread
Ork army thread
Confrontation Griffins
My Space Wolves

https://www.malefic.jp/oldrac/p/nael08.jpg



https://www.malefic.jp/oldrac/p/nabo03.jpg

Sprung to mind as I read those posts.

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Rick



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this was in a previous convosation when i said that i missed the older more cartoony nature of the orcs
now it is true that many of the new have army books had an items or abilities that give out multiple attacks and this has ment that that can feild one regiment killing character (often with mount) but these still arnt as obsene as some of the magic item card combination available in the past


like much of the orc army a giant is an unpredictable wrecking ball and drunk, pick up is one of the random attacks he might do. a star dragon doesn't wear any trousers and so doesnt take the time too stuff a character in there for later
any surviving member of the fighting ranks may attack back should they survive the assault
in a 2000pts army you can have 2 giant but (as far as i know)only one star dragon

and hey i admit id love a more tirnabor style army in warhammer, isnt that what the current chaos dwarves are ment too be

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THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER

When I said I disliked the fantasy element I was referring to the look of the game. I much prefer the modern warhammer look in fantasy. Old dwarfs and orcs looked horrid, too fantastical and rather silly. The more serious and 'realistic' look is definitely my preference. That said GW still is capable of the odd stinker. Razorgors aka Pumbagors and the new minos are two examples from the new beats book that suck. The new minos are also REALLY expensive. They look like cows with random slabs of meat stuck onto them at seemingly random points.

i dont think its indiviuable things its more of an overall situation
the game needs an overall wich gw are unlikely to do therefore
the same problems will keep occuring.now combine a flawed and
outdated system with rediculas prices and you have a problem.
there solution is to keep bringing out suplements and funky models
but thats basically trying to put a band aid on bullet wound its
not even a quick fix.

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Brettonians P-20-W-18-D-0-L-2
Empire P-16-W-9-D-3-L-4
Space Marines P-12-W-7-D-1-L-4
Menoth P-3-W-1-D-0-L-2
Romans P-7-W-3-D-0-L-4 (AL)

Bottom line is that we live in a capitalist, commercial culture, and the only thing that will force GW to change Fantasy (change in the "massive overhaul" sense, not the "hey, buy this new version for £50... it's... um... cooler! New army books too!" sense) is if sales on it suddenly plummet. Until that happens, it will just pootle along with its 'new army book every few months' sales agenda.

Ultimately, it's an issue of investment. If you've spent £100-£500 on a Fantasy army, you have vested interest in continuing to play the game; and after so many decades GW has built up a large core audience who daren't give up the system for fear of losing their 'investment'.

Just glad I got out when I did (GW in general, not Fantasy specifically).

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Rick



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But do you not agree Rick, that when even people who have those large investments in the game become disenchanted that something has gone horribly wrong? It's all well and good ploughing on with the game because of the time and money you've invested but I think we are now seeing the 'breaking point' for even the hardcore.

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My Storm Lord Chaos army thread
Ork army thread
Confrontation Griffins
My Space Wolves

to be honest the niggles dont bother that much and when im away from the club i use the previous rulebook and have done since it came out

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THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER

You see niggles, I see serious flaws. Meh.

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My Storm Lord Chaos army thread
Ork army thread
Confrontation Griffins
My Space Wolves

Well I agree with you here, in principal. And I also agree with the main thrust of the topic. My point is that people's disenchantment with a game system will not be a concern to the creators until that disenchantment translates into a noticable decline in sales.

I don't have any financial information on GW to know one way or the other whether Fantasy is currently 'booming' or not; but my feeling is that there are enough people out there who only need a new, shiny army book to get them to dust off their stuff, spend several hundred pounds reinforcing it, playing for 6 months then disappearing. When you factor in the what... dozen army books? For each of the two main systems? You get a revolving door effect of one group after the other being conned into a few months of playing. It's a sales ploy that's served GW well for a very long time now, and I don't see it letting up.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this.

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Rick



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